Seven Days Campaign Game

Winterfest #19
tombeach
Major
Major
Posts: 184
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2014 6:30 pm
Location: Rochester, WI

Re: Seven Days Campaign Game

Post by tombeach » Fri Jan 29, 2016 1:39 am

HI Todd and Roger,

My apologies for the delayed replies. I've been dealing with some new work issues of my own in an effort to also not end up missing WF either in part or whole. For now things are holding but I will advise you if they change.

Thanks for the offers of the Fatigue Charts, Todd. If you can post any examples or explain further I would be most interested to know more.
1- By rule, all brigades of a division are always at the same fatigue state. Army cavalry is marked on the MH fatigue charts as having each Stuart brigade separate for fatigue purposes, so I presume that's intended and they can be separately fatigued and rested, right?
Correct.
2- Perhaps more important and less clear, when NC division enters, two of its brigades will have been wandering the map for a few days already while attached to Hu division. While the brigades are attached to Hu division, they use its fatigue status, I think that's absolutely clear. But those two brigades may have a fatigue status above zero when their division enters. In general, when a parent absorbs an element, the parent absorbs the worst status (morale and ammo are explicitly this way) of its elements. If Hu division has accumulated fatigue, say ONE point for example, then when NC division enters and its brigades automatically revert command of their pre-game parentage, does NC division immediately as a division have ONE point of fatigue, vice zero as it would presumably normally start with at entry?
It is my opinion that whatever Fatigue the on-board Hu division has accrued, this will also be shared by the two returning brigades from Holmes' Dep of NC once reattached to Huger. SO should the Dep of NC incur more Fatigue than Huger while moving to rejoin their command, that too would be shared.
1- NC division marches or floats or something to enter play...it has to have moved in the immediately preceding turn(s) to get where it enters play. Does NC have any accumulated fatigue at entry? It clearly should by physical reality, but I don't see any rules on it.
No. Only movement on the map would account for Fatigue.
2- The stray brigade of AH division whose entry starts the rebel plan into action...ditto.
Yes. Same for Branch's brigade.
2b- The Valley Army's three divisions historically made quite a few miles on their way to the edge of the map yet I see no rules on their having accumulated fatigue either. This may be implicitly part of the Jackson illness/fatigue rule.
Jackson left his army at 1am on the 23rd and had ridden alone some 48 miles, meeting with Longstreet and both Hill's at High Meadows for Lee's briefing on the campaign. He then returned by horseback another 38 miles to rejoin his army. So while Jackson himself was absolutely exhausted at the outset of the Seven Days, his troops were not. Hence in my opinion, the reason the Valley Army is not punished for the march from the Shenandoah Valley.
Starting fatigue states should be pretty basic: how did the game miss them, or have I missed seeing where they are in the game?
Not sure I follow. There should be no starting Fatigue levels for any of the scenarios as per MH7.0b on page 8.
Can an army commander issue an order during a day to his Corps leaders to report at HQ's at some time in the evening and have a "conference"?
Yes. You would issue the written order specifying the time and location of the meeting. Although this is not necessary according to the 'Council of War' example on p.6. According to that example, Corps Commanders can simple move on their own without being summoned.
At the conference can he issue a General Order for the next day outlining goals and movement orders for Corps to be followed the next day.
(This was standard practice among most competent commanders in the War. )
Yes. Once the commanders have assembled for the conference, McClellan would use his Command Points (8) to issue his orders (In Person). As each Corps commander receives his orders he may take off for his HQ to implement them, assuming he accepts them.
If so does this General Order count as one written order (since it covers each command) or is each command individual which defeats the purpose of a conference and is very unhistorical.
I think the answer to your question Roger is probably the latter if I understand you correctly. Keep in mind however that the conference produces three huge benefits -- the orders are delivered immediately and they are given in the best possible form which is In Person (+2 Acceptance Table Mod.) and finally, the Corps commanders can start rolling for Acceptance the same turn the orders are given at the conference.
I would suggest that we agree, perhaps on Friday that a brigade of such and such strength in column equates to so many hexes to be in column.
This is actually already accounted for with the "B" Fire Level per hex rule as well as Wagons and Artillery being mandated to take up their own single road hex while in Road Column. As for tactical field columns, the brigade does not take up any more space than the one hex it occupies when not on a road.

tombeach
Major
Major
Posts: 184
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2014 6:30 pm
Location: Rochester, WI

Re: Seven Days Campaign Game

Post by tombeach » Fri Jan 29, 2016 2:46 am

A command conference, limited to one per calendar day and not conducted yet on the first day, is an occasion where the army commander tells everyone the same order, but that one order may have as many parts as needed so that IN EFFECT it is a distinct order for each subordinate commander in attendance. One restriction to this is that for the Federals in this scenario, the subordinates may only be corps commanders. For the rebels, without corps commanders, the subordinates may only be division commanders. **This is probably a problem and we need to resolve it** Per the rule, a rebel wing commander won't be able to benefit by attending a conference, but his subordinate division commanders can. This seems odd, but OTOH, it's also wrong to allow both wing and division commanders to attend if the Federals can't have both corps and division commanders. And, for that matter, the Union can make wings too and would encounter a similar problem. I suggest that the text of the rule govern our game: rebel division commanders and Federal corps commanders can attend conferences, wing commanders may not, or that any subordinate commander may attend and get an order.
While the use of the Conference method can be very expedient, it also presents a few contradictions resulting in problems.

Under 10.6c Conferences, it is made clear that only one order can be issued to all Corps Commanders. Also, that one order can only be of one Type (Simple or Complex). So unless you're giving all the Corps Commanders present the same order (Simple or Complex), you would still be required to issue orders to each individual Corps Commander. I think this is the clear difference demonstrated between the Conference and the Council of War.

I could be reading too much into this and my take may be wrong. But 10.6c is pretty specific with the last line that only one order can be issued to all, and that one order must be of one Type (Simple or Complex). Lee's High Meadows meeting I spoke of earlier took more than four hours to complete after all the division commanders and Jackson had assembled. Clearly that was an example of a 'Council of War.' I don't think either side could realistically bring all its Corps Commanders together and over the course of one turn (30 minutes) detail all of their movement and attack orders.

If a CSA Wing Commander goes to conference, Lee can order Longstreet's Wing for example to execute orders as a Wing. But in so doing he can also order say, McLaws and Whiting (were they assigned to Longstreet's Wing) are to perform certain Divisional Goals orders. Just as Heintzelman in his received conference order could be given separate Divisional Goals for Hooker and Kearny's divisions. (see 10.5b, paragraph 3)

I would not agree that a CSA Wing Commander could not attend a Conference. Especially since the rules call it a "(corps-equivalent structure)" via MH3.2.

TEJ
Captain
Captain
Posts: 104
Joined: Tue Aug 12, 2014 12:30 am

Re: Seven Days Campaign Game

Post by TEJ » Fri Jan 29, 2016 4:33 am

I hadn't caught that "Council of War" and "Conference" aren't the same thing, so plenty of my bad there.

The only place I see "Council of War" mentioned is in the example within rule 10.6a. And it's illegal as written, because the commander cannot issue IPV orders successively, he must return to his HQ to recharge his IPV allowance. I think that contradiction is why I presumed the "Council" example was simply an example of "Conference" that was placed poorly within the rules booklet. But that doesn't quite work either, because each attendee is getting separate orders in "Council of War" as allowed by the command points, whereas that would not be relevant in a "Conference."

On its face, I don't see "Council of War" as a relevant example of anything or as a legal series of actions.

10.6c, "Conference," is at least not illegal. Normally a commander couldn't issue an IPV at his HQ, but this specific rule clearly overrides the general provision. The question seems to be in whether "the same order is received by each attendee" means that each attendee would get an order only for one unit (which would be stupid, "all commanders in the whole army will attack Little Round Top at dawn") or whether the single order can consist of multiple parts, so that each subordinate unit can have its own little piece of the larger mission (in effect an individual unit order).

I note that for the commander to issue a separate IPV to each attendee of a council or conference would require that the commander issue an order only every third turn: turn 1 issue an order to one attendee then move to the HQ, turn 2 remain at the HQ recharging until the movement phase (a complete game turn from movement to movement of the next turn), turn 3 move away from the HQ, turn 4 issue another order and repeat the process. For the Union in 7 Days, to do this would require 12 hours for only corps commanders, presuming using all the night turns and some day turns.

TEJ
Captain
Captain
Posts: 104
Joined: Tue Aug 12, 2014 12:30 am

Re: Seven Days Campaign Game

Post by TEJ » Sat Jan 30, 2016 1:49 am

Reading the OB?

For our scenario, I see that 5th Corps has deployed 5b, 5b(3), and 2x 5b in various locations. Pretty evidently that's the corps artillery, with "5" being the unit designation, "b" being battery (or battalion, the rules seem undecided), and in the one case "(3)" being a battery with only 3 gun points vice the 'normal' 5 points.

And that artillery array matches the OB and counter manifest at the end of the MH rule booklet. Makes sense on its face.

Looking later chronologically, 5th Corps in "Glendale to Malvern" has apparently suffered casualties (that seems historical) because it deploys only 2x 5b and 5b(3), so that it looks to have lost 5 gun points. It is reinforced by "Resb" which I believe I am correct in reading as one of the AoP reserve batteries.

Again, so far so understandable, if I'm correct.

So I think I'm reading the starting conditions correctly. But then I don't really understand...

2nd, 3rd, and 6th Corps deploy in only one place, so perhaps the artillery listed at the back of the MH rules is simply included with the whole corps in the one place.

But if that's the case, and if the 7 Federal reserve batteries that the rules talk about are listed specifically in the starting conditions (which I think they are), then where does 4th Corps' artillery of 4x 4b and 4b(2) come from? The OB and manifest at the end of the MH rule book show no artillery with 4th Corps at all. Oddly, the manifest shows several fewer infantry brigades than appear on the loss record charts, so that makes no sense to me either.

To further confuse me, the MH rules speak of 3 rebel reserve batteries but the scenario setup seems to speak of 4 such, but no division artillery at all...unless it's included within the division as an assumed thing, in which case where did the extra battery come from?

kqrgcw
Captain
Captain
Posts: 118
Joined: Sat Aug 16, 2014 1:25 am

Re: Seven Days Campaign Game

Post by kqrgcw » Sat Jan 30, 2016 2:10 am

2 questions

1. Can that "General Order"be of one section per Corps giving them marching orders for the next day and a general area of deployment:

I. First Corps go here
II. Second Corps go there
III. Third Corps move behind Ist etc

In effect each Corps commander would have gotten a copy of the same order that covers all the Corps.

2. How are the Union gunboats on the James handled? They had an impact on the Malvern Hill action.

Roger

tombeach
Major
Major
Posts: 184
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2014 6:30 pm
Location: Rochester, WI

Re: Seven Days Campaign Game

Post by tombeach » Sat Jan 30, 2016 11:52 am

I will unfortunately be unable to attend WF after all due to my own circumstances with work. I will be talking with Dave regarding making the game available for you all to play if that's what you decide to do as a group.

Tom

kqrgcw
Captain
Captain
Posts: 118
Joined: Sat Aug 16, 2014 1:25 am

Re: Seven Days Campaign Game

Post by kqrgcw » Sun Jan 31, 2016 1:42 am

Now there is a conundrum.

Roger

Racine
Master Sergeant
Master Sergeant
Posts: 41
Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2014 4:50 am

Re: Seven Days Campaign Game

Post by Racine » Sun Jan 31, 2016 4:10 pm

Tom,

Are you available to talk via phone tomorrow (Monday)? We all need to settle this ASAP. Today I am unable to do the discussion (birthday commitment and NavCon rush stuff).

kqrgcw
Captain
Captain
Posts: 118
Joined: Sat Aug 16, 2014 1:25 am

Re: Seven Days Campaign Game

Post by kqrgcw » Sun Jan 31, 2016 11:46 pm

Sure,

Call me on my cell phone 330-327-4855. After 9:00 AM Eastern time would be best.

Roger

Racine
Master Sergeant
Master Sergeant
Posts: 41
Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2014 4:50 am

Re: Seven Days Campaign Game

Post by Racine » Mon Feb 01, 2016 10:05 pm

Roger and Todd,

I just talked with Tom. He has the flu or food poisoning and I feel sorry for him. But he clarified his offer to us, in that he was offering to send either a scenario of The 7 Days or a two mapper campaign game of Gettysburg or another game with the same basic rules. My feeling is that I don't want to play anything in this series except the TSD campaign as scenarios and Gettysburg don't excite me. I am thinking I can probably get into one of the BTR or the Europa demo games. What are your thoughts? Would you like me to bring a 2 mapper of his with me for you? If so which game in the series? I was really looking forward to TSD campaign and I think the confederates would have almost as much of the same problems with changing orders as the union side but doable. Maybe next year for me.

Post Reply